How long have you worked at Gordon Biersch?
I started at Gordon Biersch in 1990 when they opened their second store in San Jose. I worked as a bar manager, and not too long after that I started brewing with Dan Gordon. The company started building the San Diego brewery restaurant in 1998, and in 1999 I started brewing here.
What’s the ownership structure?
Gordon Biersch as of 2010 is owned by a subsidiary of Centerbridge Capital Partners called CraftWorks. They also have the Rock Bottom breweries and others like Boulder’s Walnut Brewery in their portfolio. In total I think there are more than 70 brewing operations; we’re the largest brewery restaurant group in the United States.
That must give you tremendous buying power?
Yes, we can contract all the hops and grain we want. I’ve been very fortunate to be in the position I’m in. I now oversee six breweries as a regional manager, so I’m on the road quite a lot.
As part of a massive company, how does that affect public perception?
There are many who just see us as “the box in Mission Valley that makes lagers.” We’re trying to change that perception by making beers other than lagers and by staying involved with the local scene.
No more Reinheitsgebot?
Not anymore! Just over a year ago we got the green light to branch out. Since then, I’ve been leveraging my relationships around town to learn more about the hoppier side of brewing. It’s been an interesting learning curve; the biggest challenge with making these West Coast-style beers is that my tanks aren’t built for dry hopping. I have just a small opening at the top and the first time I tried to dry hop, the thing geysered on me and I spent three hours just cleaning up the place. The servers all had a good laugh. So I had to learn another way to make it happen, and now I clean and purge a tank, add the hops I want for aroma, and then bring the beer back over it.
What other styles are you making that you couldn’t before?
Right now we have a rye session IPA on tap, plus we’ve done Belgian wits and Belgian tripels. It’s fun to have brewers especially come in to try our new beers. I was honored that Travis Smith from Societe enjoyed our IPA.
You talked about staying involved with the local scene. What does that mean?
It’s something I talk with all of our brewers about; I ask them, “What are you doing to stay relevant in your local market?” For my part, I come in for a class on Post-Fermentation and Maturation once a semester at UCSD’s brewing program. Everybody joins that program to learn how to make West Coast IPAs, and I’m there to open another little door to other styles of brewing. I always invite the students to come have a beer with me at Gordon Biersch, and the feedback has been positive. I also recently gave a guest lecture on the same topic at SDSU’s program; George Thornton of The Homebrewer was gracious enough to give me about 45 minutes to speak.
I also try to do collaborations with folks around town. The most fun one in recent memory was at Karl Strauss’ Old Columbia brewpub. Scot Blair really wanted a Zwickelbier on tap, so I teamed up with other guys like Paul Segura (Karl Strauss), Cosimo Sorrentino (Monkey Paw/South Park) and Doug Duffield (Ballast Point) to brew. Blair was there all day long, and then Colby Chandler (Ballast Point) showed up, and so did Chuck Silva (formerly Green Flash, now Silva Brewing). My assistant Dan Anderson was in awe, and sat down with Chuck immediately and just started peppering him with questions. That day was a lot of fun. There’s also been talks of a collaboration with Doug Pominville (Ballast Point Grunion creator), Doug Duffield, Doug Constantiner (Societe), and myself. That beer might have a pretty funny name that starts with “4 Dougs” but we’ll see.
You seem to know tons of people in the industry?
That’ll happen after 26 years in the business. I’m fortunate that veterans like Lee Chase (Automatic/Blind Lady), Tomme Arthur (Port/Lost Abbey/Hop Concept), Tom Nickel (Nickel Beer Co) and others seek my advice on lagers. Grant from ChuckAlek and Ray from Fall Brewing were just in the other day to pick up yeast. Chuck Silva used to bring in his brew crew to sit at the bar and ask me questions. Jim Crute (Lightning) is a good friend of mine and he’s making a great pilsner in Poway. Those guys aren’t afraid to be seen in here, even though I’m a brewer at a big corporate company.
I like to make myself available to brewers; I love to learn and to teach. I gave some advice to Dan Egan at Mission Brewery when he wanted to make a great Bohemian pilsner. I don’t care about giving away trade secrets. I just want everyone to have better beer.
Can you tell us about your brewing assistants?
I’ve had many assistants in these two-plus decades. Some of them have gone to Siebel and other brewing schools, and some are nurtured from within. Carli Smith, who’s now the head brewer at Rock Bottom La Jolla, used to be a hostess here. But she asked once if she could help brew some time, and I said, “Sure, be here at 6 a.m. tomorrow morning.” She showed up and then I could never really get rid of her after that. And what’s so fun is that now the student has become the master — she gave me some great advice when I wanted to make a Belgian wit. I had never brewed with orange peel and coriander before under Dan Gordon. Her excitement about the industry keeps me excited. And the same goes for my current assistant, Dan Anderson. He was willing to stack grain and learn the process, so I started teaching; he’s probably my heir apparent in the brewery and does a great job promoting Gordon Biersch at festivals.
So why aren’t more local brewers making lagers?
Well I think there are a few reasons. First, most of the brewhouses in town aren’t built for it; here on my system I can really cook the grains the way I want. Secondly, most brewers aren’t willing or able to give lagers the proper amount of time to rest at cold temperatures. If you need a 21-day turn-around, then lagers aren’t for you.
Is there a future for lagers?
Of course. I see it especially at festivals where we’ll pour an IPA and a helles side by side. Folks in this town love IPAs, but during that last hour especially, we’ll have a long line for our Helles because people want something drinkable. Tastes are cyclical, and even though IPA is huge right now, I’m sure we’ll see a strong swing back towards lighter flavors at some point.
What’s your take on India pale lagers?
Honestly, I haven’t had any that I’ve really liked.
What do you think will happen in the next 5 to 10 years?
I wish I could see the future. I mean, if you had told me 10 years ago that we’d have 120 breweries in San Diego, I don’t know if I’d believe you. I hope that we’ll see more brewpubs, with more people focusing on doing a small number of things very, very well, like a Rocky’s burger for example. With all the battling for shelf space, I think that approach makes sense.
It’s amazing to see the growth of the scene. During the classes I’ve taught you see all the shirts and hats of these newer breweries that are popping up. For me, it’s been tough to keep up. I can’t download the rulebook every day about which brands are cool and which aren’t. I just drink good beer. I still drink Ballast Point because I know the brewers and I know they work hard to dump the grain in. But I understand why people may not think the same way that I do, and that’s okay. That’s why we vote with our dollar.
Do you have advice for newer brewers?
A. Stay true to yourself. B. Always be true to the quality. You have to make really, really good beer. And if it’s not good, you can’t sell it.
Do you have any upcoming events?
Yeah, around the 5th of this month we’ll be tapping a Czech pilsner, and on the 19th we’re having a Maibock release party. This style is brewed for the month of May and springtime, and my band The Barnacles will be playing some live music on the patio. Then, hopefully this summer, we’ll have a session Bonobos brewed at Gordon Biersch, but I’m still trying to convince Cosimo to jump on board with the idea.